Mental Health U

Unveiling the Personal Journey Through Grief with Counselor Madeline Baker

• Bill Emahiser

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Navigating the winding path of grief is no easy journey, but with the expertise of Madeline Baker, a compassionate licensed professional counselor, we uncover the varied landscapes of this profound emotion. Together, we challenge the myth of a one-size-fits-all grieving process and discuss the original context of Elizabeth Kubler Ross's stages of grief, ensuring you walk away with a deeper understanding of the personal nature of loss. Whether you're mourning the death of a loved one, grappling with a life transition, or seeking to support someone in their sorrow, our conversation promises valuable insights and solace.

Culture often writes the script for how we mourn, but in our honest discussion, we tear down these 'feeling rules' to reveal how they can restrict our healing. As we dissect the delicate interplay between grief and trauma, you'll learn how to identify when grief evolves from a natural response to one that could benefit from professional care. For those seeking community in their healing, we shed light on the supportive embrace of grief groups like those at Unison Health, where shared experiences create a tapestry of collective strength and understanding. With Madeline's guidance and our commitment to exploring the intricacies of grief, this episode aims to offer a beacon of hope for all those navigating loss.

Maddie Baker:

And I think a group setting is important in this way, because a lot of times when we have these losses, we can feel so alone and isolated, and so to bring people together who have similar experiences, who can really open up and be vulnerable with one another, can provide that additional support that's missing.

Bill Emahiser:

Hello and welcome. I'm your host, bill Emahiser, and you're listening to Mental Health U, the podcast dedicated to demystifying and de-stigmatizing mental health issues. So if you or someone you know is struggling with depression and anxiety, trauma or some other mental health issue, then this podcast is for you. I am super excited for today's show. It's my pleasure to welcome Madeline Baker, licensed professional counselor from Unison Health U. Madeline Baker is a compassionate and highly knowledgeable content expert in the field of grief. She also provides treatment services for people struggling with mental health and substance abuse issues. Welcome, Madeline, to the show. Hi Bill, thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited to be here today. Well, I am too. It's a really interesting topic, I think. But before we get into that, tell us a little bit about your professional experience and what you do here at Unison Health.

Maddie Baker:

Yeah. So I would say I've been in the mental health field to some capacity probably for the last three years, and specifically at Unison. You know, in one way or another I've been doing counseling for the past year and a couple months. So as far as being involved in the field in that sense, it's been about a year.

Bill Emahiser:

Nice, excellent. Well, we're talking about grief today. It is the best that you can from a clinical perspective and maybe you can get a little bit more into that. But if you're a clinical perspective, and maybe even for folks who are listening to this that don't have a clinical background, what is grief and how would you define it?

Maddie Baker:

Oh goodness, so grief really is. It's this normal response we all have. It's pretty universal as far as everybody experiencing it across the world. Our personal way of coping, however, is unique to each of us, right? So grief is a normal, natural response to any loss, and it can be a loss of any significance to you, whether it's loss of a loved one, loss of a job, loss of freedoms, loss of trust different things like that just causes these conflicting feelings from the loss of what was normal before and that significant change to a new normal that was completely unfamiliar.

Bill Emahiser:

You know, that's as you're, as you're mentioning that, I think of you know, I think of grief as somebody died right, and you're talking about changes and we were in the process at Unison of bringing on this sanctuary model, where we really even think about change as in and of itself you could grieve changes right.

Bill Emahiser:

Changes could feel dangerous and very uncomfortable Is could it be like a change in a job? Could that potentially be a grief scenario where I've left a job and I'm now going to this new job, even though I love the new job? Is there a component of grief with that?

Maddie Baker:

Absolutely. I mean, you're literally leaving something that was so familiar to you and normal to you, even if it wasn't the most enjoyable experience. You can still grieve that loss. You can still grieve the relationships that end there because you're moving on to somewhere new. You can grieve the fact that that routine and that normal for you is no longer.

Bill Emahiser:

Are there different types or different stages of grief that individuals commonly experience?

Maddie Baker:

So I have a love hate relationship with this question because we talk about stages of grief. Right, everybody's familiar with this idea of stages of grief, you know, as Elizabeth Kubler Ross's denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. So what people don't realize is those stages were intended for studies that she did on the terminally ill, so people who received a diagnosis, who knew they were dying. And we have taken it, we, as in the mental health field, the world, everybody has taken these stages and said, oh, this is how grief works. You know, I'm going to be in denial, then I'm going to be angry, and then I'm going to bargain a little, then I might be depressed, but then I'll accept it, and that's just not how it works. Grief is so not linear in that way. So, yes, we have this concept of stages of grief, but we don't hit those stages one by one, like you would think when you hear the word stage.

Bill Emahiser:

It's possible that we may never even go through all those stages.

Maddie Baker:

Oh, absolutely. You know you might never be in denial. You might always have a sense of acceptance and you just might be angry at the same time about it. You might just be depressed about it, and you know we have so many more complicated emotions as humans too, so there's so much beyond that. So it's helpful that we do have these stages to conceptualize what you know. Kubla Ross's initial intent was related to terminally ill. However, when we think about it in a broader context, we're not going through those stages step by step.

Bill Emahiser:

How can one distinguish between, like normal grieving and maybe a more complex or prolonged grief experience that would require a mental health professional?

Maddie Baker:

Yeah, great question. I don't love considering grief as like a clinical concept, but there are absolutely times where it can become problematic, specifically when it might exacerbate symptoms of depression, anxiety or just lead to somebody not even being able to care for themself on a day-to-day basis. So I think it's still important to recognize grief is normal, but whenever it comes to the point of impairing our lives, that's when it's important to seek out help, whether it's professional help or from family or social supports.

Bill Emahiser:

What role does culture and societal norms play in shaping the grieving process for individuals?

Maddie Baker:

Sure, I mean, everyone definitely greaves differently, like I mentioned before, despite grief being this universal concept. But culture definitely plays a role in how somebody might honor their loved ones who have passed or maybe are not around for other reasons. People might perceive loss as something that's dishonorable I mean there's this idea in a lot of cultures with shame or dishonored. That can complicate the grieving process. There's people who connect with loss through a religious concept or spirituality, providing different avenues of support and hope in those areas. But in other cultures and societal norms it might be considered inappropriate to cry.

Maddie Baker:

That's one of the first things we think about, too is when you're grieving, oh, you're probably gonna be crying a lot. But that's just not true for everyone and even I would argue, a lot of times men don't cry. That's just this kind of societal concept of like oh well, you're a man, be strong, right, and that's just sort of a stereotype that I don't love. But in some cultures too, it might be inappropriate to cry and express that grief outwardly, outside of a family setting and to other people. There's these different things called like feelings, rules that vary by religions, nationalities, different ethnicities, that definitely impact the way somebody might process and perceive and experience grief.

Bill Emahiser:

Can you say a little bit more about those feeling rules Like what are they and how do they influence you?

Maddie Baker:

I mean so feelings, rules you can sort of take back to as far as what I mentioned before, like some of those cultural norms like you know, don't cry.

Maddie Baker:

You know, don't cry about this, don't share that. I would also compare it to sort of like grief myths, these, this idea of like how we're taught to grieve growing up, how people model grief to us. So you know, that could come off as being modeled to like, okay, go be alone. You know we grieve alone, we don't grieve around people or go express this by being angry or throwing things or hitting things. You know, if that's how somebody is dealing with and processing through their grief, you know it might also be replace the loss. So if you lost your job by you know means other than your own choice, you might be told we'll just go get a new job or a relationship ends. You're like, oh, there's plenty of fish in the sea, right, you hear that all the time and so it complicates things a little bit. But those are kind of like rules and things that were taught that may not necessarily be the most helpful in the grieving process.

Bill Emahiser:

We do hear those, those sayings all the time, especially like the loss of a relationship. Well, there's more fish in the sea and that kind of takes the. I guess it almost feels like it's taking away the meaningfulness of that experience, that love or that attraction to that other person, that connection with that other person, when you say, ah, that was a disposable relationship. You just go grab another relationship like you know it'll be fine. It's just gonna pan out without really having a chance to kind of honor that experience and work through those feelings. Well, as we're talking about these things, I'm thinking about trauma. And is there a difference? Can you talk about, maybe, the difference between grief and trauma and how those two might intersect or influence each other?

Maddie Baker:

Absolutely. You know, grief and trauma can really intersect, so it's kind of difficult sometimes to separate those things. You know, a lot of folks believe their grief is trauma and vice versa, and a lot of times grief is going to follow trauma. No matter what, you know you're still, you're grieving the loss of something related to a traumatic event, and so trauma would be more so that lasting mental and physical response that people have to like a shocking, stressful or really difficult experience. So like that could be, you know, people who fight in wars or witnessing or experiencing something that was horrible or awful or really scary.

Maddie Baker:

And trauma, you know, presents itself depression, anxiety, flashbacks, some nightmares, really avoiding memories or reminders of an event, externally or internally. But grief, you know, it's a specific reaction to a loss and then it can have a lasting impact following that traumatic event. But these interactions, the traumatic event, can lead to significant loss, so loss of safety, loss of freedom, loss of loved ones, loss of trust, even loss of comfort, a loss of identity, like the list goes on and on. Really, there's just this loss of normal, what we used to know as normal, and then this traumatic event happens and everything changes, everything shifts, and so you're grieving, like we mentioned before. You know you're grieving what was and trying to process and move past that and get used to a new normal following this traumatic event.

Bill Emahiser:

How can friends and family best support somebody who's grieving without like kind of maybe making some of those faux pas likes well, you know there's more efficiency. Or you know you, just you know you get over it. And I think the typical response, the first thing that comes to my mind, is just to tell people you know, I'm sorry about your loss, but I'm not even sure is that the. You know, what is the? If there is a right thing to say or a right way to support someone, what is that?

Maddie Baker:

You know, I wouldn't say there's a, there's never going to be a perfect thing to say to everyone that because, like everybody grieves so uniquely, everybody processes and experiences it so differently, everybody's going to need something a little different, right?

Maddie Baker:

So for me I would say the most important thing is just to be available, to kind of do a self check, to check your own grief, myths and your own feelings, rules, and to not like impose those on other people. But really what needs to happen is people need to be available, not just the day of, the week of or the month of, but a year later, right? So, from that loss happening, a lot of times people have great support, fantastic support right up front for the first week or two, and then all of a sudden people start trickling off and that support kind of goes away and dissipates. And so it's a year later when people are still grieving and you're hitting this first anniversary of this significant loss and nobody's there. So I would say the best thing to do is to be available. You know, however that's going to look to your loved one of that's being a, a texture or phone call or being physically present, you know, recognizing what your loved one or your friend or whoever, it is what they need.

Bill Emahiser:

And then people kind of rally around when there's a loss and there's a lot of support up front. But then it's those anniversaries that come up and you know that, whether it's the I'm thinking of a loss because of death, right, there's holidays that come up and there's all these events. And there's life events that happen, like the birth of a child, but your significant love there is no longer there, right or just any any kind of of situation. Yeah, probably where that support is needed the most.

Maddie Baker:

Absolutely and actually that you know there's something that they call those other additional losses, called secondary losses. So you have this primary loss. So, like you just mentioned, if your significant significant other has passed on, you have the secondary losses to where they're no longer here for holidays. You know they're not. They're not there in the mornings to go through your morning routine with. So that's a loss to right, that's a secondary loss to that one person who's no longer with you. So it's really significant when those secondary losses happen and people don't have the support that they did at the beginning.

Bill Emahiser:

Well, if I am, if I had a grief experience and it was impacting my ability to function in, I came to you, madeline, for therapy. What specific strategies or therapeutic approaches have you found to be effective in helping people cope with grief?

Maddie Baker:

Yeah. So I think one thing is to use direct language. You know, fully recognize what happened, not just like oh, like it's gone or this isn't normal anymore, but to say like if it's, if it's death related oh you know, my sister died and to emphasize like that's concrete, right. So that's going to help us kind of process it better. And it sounds harsh, but it's all about accepting a new reality and so using that direct language can help face that reality, but also encouraging people to find symbols or reminders that are going to support them in remembering their lost loved ones, if that's the case, or having memorabilia from whatever it may be, if it's a job, if it's loss of a relationship, if that's something significant or a friendship, loss of a pet even people keep dog tags and that kind of stuff. So having something that's meaningful that you can hold on to. Having creative outlets is fun too.

Maddie Baker:

I've utilized using mandalas before to identify significant emotions and feelings that are kind of surrounding a primary loss, understanding the ripple effects of things, how related to that primary and secondary loss concept, and also I do a lot of psycho education with grief and kind of identifying like, what is your grief? We mentioned types of grief earlier and I didn't get too into it. But there's these other things like disenfranchised grief, things that aren't recognized or validated or even supported by a person's social world, and so I like to educate on some of those things of like look, your grief is still valid, even though other people may not see it that way, so really validating that as well, and so that's just examples of a few things that I've done, and obviously we could go into the cognitive, behavioral side of things. We can always talk about that and our thinking habits and patterns and how that impacts us, and I certainly do stuff with that as well, but I think a lot of it is support, validation and helping people process and identify with this new reality.

Bill Emahiser:

You have a group coming up real soon or maybe it's already started to help people struggling with grief. Can you tell me what could I expect and why is group such a good modality for grief work?

Maddie Baker:

Yeah. So, yes, I do have this group coming up. It's growing through grief. It's important to recognize our grief may not go away, but we do grow around it, and so the group I'm starting it's intended to provide some education, some support pertaining to our grief and loss experiences. I try to go in depth with as many things as possible as far as what we've discussed today Some of those types of grief, debunking some of those stages of grief, concepts, identifying what your loss is and being able to identify with others who have experienced loss and have similar reactions, responses, emotions and different ways of processing and coping. And helping identify what are unhealthy coping skills versus how can we maybe process and grieve and cope in a healthy way. And I think a group setting is important in this way, because a lot of times when we have these losses, we can feel so alone and isolated, and so to bring people together who have similar experiences, who can really open up and be vulnerable with one another, can provide that additional support that's missing.

Bill Emahiser:

If somebody wanted to learn more about the grief group or wanted to attend, what should they do next?

Maddie Baker:

So for those who are already involved or enrolled in services at Unison, you can just talk with your clinician about it or your provider if you're seeing a counselor or a psychiatrist, whoever you're seeing case manager, and they can get a referral into me. That being said, for those who are not already enrolled in services with Unison, you can go to our website and healthorg and you can get scheduled for an assessment from there. You can also call in to the phone line 419-214-4673 and, you know, schedule an appointment that way you can. Also, if you're talking to your clinician this one's for you you can just refer to me directly. You can call me or email me. My direct line is 419-936-7438. So those would probably be the best avenues to get set up that way.

Bill Emahiser:

Well, madeline, you have been just a wealth, a fountain of knowledge I think we could probably spend. Maybe have you come back and spend a whole, maybe even a whole session just talking about you know in more detail and in more depth about those cognitive behavioral strategies and some of the other ideas that might be helpful for folks. I really, really appreciate you being on the show today and I'm hoping that that grief group I know if people will come to it are going to get a really positive experience out of it. So I appreciate you being on the show today.

Maddie Baker:

Yeah, thanks so much for asking me to be on. I've loved this experience. It's been great.

Bill Emahiser:

This podcast has been brought to you by Unison Health. Unison Health is a nonprofit mental health agency dedicated to serving the Northwest Ohio community for the past 50 years.